Transcript from Amy Nathan
Author of:
YANKEE DOODLE GALES: WOMEN PILOTS OF WORLD WAR II
and also
COUNT ON US: AMERICAN WOMEN IN THE U.S. MILITARY
Both books published by National Geographic
www.AmyNathanBooks.com
Questions asked by Sydney Gothenquist [email protected] Answers from Amy Nathan, [email protected] - December 9, 2014
Sydney Gothenquist: Why do you believe so many people were against WASP?
Amy Nathan: People who knew the WASP and worked with them, including male military pilots, weren’t “against the WASP,” but respected these women for their skill and professional approach to doing very challenging and often dangerous flying jobs. However at the start of the 1940s, there were many people, of course, who thought that flying was a man’s job. Most people back then thought a great many other jobs were men’s jobs too, feeling that a woman’s role was primarily as wife and mother. It takes a while for people to change their attitudes, and the amazing job done by all the women of World War II in taking over factory and business jobs left vacant by men who were drafted into the military played a role in gradually changing people’s views about what women could do. The role of all the women who served in women’s units during World War II — including the WASP — helped too in giving people new ideas about what women were capable of. But changing people’s attitudes takes time, and it happens gradually. However, all the World War II women — including the WSP — helped set the stage for changing attitudes about women, which blossomed with the women’s movements of the 1960s and 70s.
Sydney Gothenquist: What do you think of Jackie Cochran as a leader?
Amy Nathan: She was a tenacious fighter who didn’t take no for an answer. “She was forceful and focused and not everybody liked her,” observes B.J. Williams. “But you can’t always win a popularity contest and be effective.”She knew how to negotiate with the top officials in the military. She fought for her women pilots, and had big plans for creating a permanent place for women pilots in the military. But she also intentionally overlooked some problems, feeling that this was necessary to keep the program going, such as not investigating the possible instances of sabotage at Camp Davis, and allowing the tow target pilots to fly planes that weren’t in tip-top condition. She may have been right in that, in choosing which battles to fight, feeling that news reports on men sabotaging women pilots would lead to the program being shut down. Not sure this was the best way to handle this, but it’s hard to second guess her because the times were so different then, in terms of the power women might have in complaining about overt discrimination. Hard to know, but it is a shame that those black women weren’t allowed to have their chance too, especially since the Tuskeegee Airmen program wouldn’t allow women to train to be pilots. However, her tough leadership approach led her to make what turned out to be an unwise ultimatum in 1944, when she said that if the Army wouldn’t give the WASP military status, it should end the program. And, as described my book, that ultimatum helped lead to the end of the WASP. Maybe if she had allowed her program to be part of the WAC (Women Army Corps) it could have continued, but Jackie wasn’t interested in compromising and serving under the WAC command. So I think her tough leadership style, while effective in getting the training program started (and in broadening its focus and keeping it running) had its downsides too. That’s often the way it is — there are good points and bad points to everything.
Sydney Gothenquist: What legacies do you believe Jackie left behind?
Amy Nathan: She showed that women could do a job that most people at the time thought was a man’s job, helping to change people’s ideas about women’s role in American society. She also helped inspire women who were interested in flying, by setting a high standard for flying performance, with all the flying awards she won and the flying records she set.
Sydney Gothenquist: Do you think Jackie is one of the reasons women can fight in the war today?
Amy Nathan: I think the example the WASP pilots set helped open the door for women pilots in the 1970s when the military began allowing women into pilot training programs. So, in a way, that helped set the stage for the continued progress in terms of job responsibilities that servicewomen have made since then. But I think it’s primarily the superior job done by servicewomen from the 1970s on as they tackled increasingly demanding assignments, especially in the first Gulf War and now in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when women have been effectively “in” combat whether they’re supposed to be or not, because combat is all around them in those wars. Their service under fire has led to the new advances that have occurred more recently, with military women having more of a role in combat operations today.
Sydney Gothenquist: How did WASP benefit women in the program?
Amy Nathan: It gave them a chance to have a job flying planes, something that was hard for a woman to get to do before the WASP. But even more important, it gave them a chance to fly the biggest and most advanced aircraft of the day—the dream of anyone who loves flying as much as these women did. It also gave them an exciting and important way to be part of the war effort. During World War II, patriotic spirit was high and there was a strong feeling that helping win this war was something everyone should do, in whatever way they could. From the women I interviewed, serving in the WASP was a high point in their lives, even though doing so opened them up to the crushing disappointment they felt when the program was ended so abruptly in 1944.
Sydney Gothenquist: Do you think any gender notes were altered because of Jackie Cochran?
Amy Nathan: Over the years, as the WASP story has become better known, more people began to realize that the WASP showed that women could pilot the same aircraft as male pilots, flying as well and as safely as men, handle stressful situations, take on a challenging work load. As I mention in the book, Jackie Cochran had the medical staff at Sweetwater keep records on the trainees’ menstrual cycles to see if that incapacitated women in their flying, and the data showed that women flew as well at all times of the month, and that male pilots actually took more sick days that women (see page 79). So one of the common charges used against women—fears that women’s menstrual cycles could affect performance—was found to be untrue. But the problem was, not many people at the time knew about the WASP or what they did during the war. Not many people knew after the war either, until the WASP started lobbying for military recognition in the 1970s (as explained in my book). For people who knew the story, the WASP achievements had an impact in changing opinions. Then later as the WASP story became better known, they had more of an impact. But it was very frustrating for the WASP. They were, as several WASP told me, the best-kept-secret of the war. Several WASP said that after the war when someone asked what they did during the war and they said that they flew military aircraft, people thought they were kidding. But people in aviation knew what these women had done. That had an impact when the military finally began allowing women to be trained as pilots. As explained in my book COUNT ON US, the changes in women’s roles in the military in the 1970s came about as a result of the many changes that had been going on in the 1960s and early 70s with the women’s rights movement. Also playing a part was the need to encourage women to join the new all-volunteer military after the draft was abolished toward the end of the Vietnam War. So when military pilot training was opened to women the WASP records helped the new women pilots persuade the military officials that women could indeed handle flying as well as men.
Sydney Gothenquist: Who do you think was the stronger leader, Jackie Cochran or Nancy Love?
Amy Nathan: They were both strong, effective leaders, although in different ways. Jackie Cochran was interested in organizational structure, running a big program, negotiating with officials. She won the support of WASP pilots because they saw her fighting for them, opening up opportunities. Nancy Love was equally loved by her ferry pilots because she led by example, piloting planes and ferrying planes herself along with her ferry pilots, and also learning to fly the more advanced planes herself to prove to top Army officials that a woman could do this and so opened up more flying opportunities for the ferry pilots. As I mention in my book, these two strong women kept out of each other’s way during the war, each tended to her own part of the program, each led in her own way, each was equally effective in her own sphere. They may not have been each other’s best buddy, but they were professional in their commitment to the broader mission and determined not to let personal issues get in the way.
Sydney Gothenquist: In your opinion, how did wwii benefit from WASP?
Amy Nathan: By taking over much of the stateside military flying, the WASP allowed more male pilots to be assigned to combat missions overseas. The U.S. military had a severe shortage of military pilots at the start of the war, and the WASP, by taking over much of the non-combat flying, helped ease the pilot shortage. The WASP also helped train new male pilots and trained male anti-aircraft gunners with the tow-target missions , and also test-flew planes that had been repaired to make sure they were safe to be flown again in combat. These were all essential services for the war effort. Also some WASP pilots were purposely trained to fly advanced planes like the B-29 specifically to show male pilots that those planes could be flown safely (see my section on the B29). That helped change the perception of those planes among male pilots, encouraging male pilots to fly those planes, which were badly needed in the war effort. The WASP also wound up delivering most of the small fighter planes from factories where they were made to ports where they would be shipped overseas—definitely an important contribution to the war.
Sydney Gothenquist: Who was the most hostile towards WASP and why?
Amy Nathan: Civilian male flight instructors in the 1940s. They had been working in flight schools the Army had set up to train new pilots, to help with the pilot shortage. As the war went better for the U.S. and the pilot shortage wasn’t as severe anymore, the Army started shutting down those training schools. The instructors were civilians and would be subject to the draft and feared that they would be drafted into the infantry, possibly to be sent as part of what many people figured would be a large force that would invade Japan. Even though the Army Airforces tried to allay these instructors’ fears by promising them that this wouldn’t happen, they were scared. They did what they could to shut down the WASP program so they could take over those stateside flying jobs and not be drafted. See chapter 10 for a description of the misinformation campaign they launched against the WASP. However, many of these instructors taught basic, beginning flying skills and weren’t trained on as wide an array of aircraft as the WASP. The WASP had been taught to fly the advanced planes the military was using, something these instructors hadn’t been trained to do. So in a way, those men weren’t qualified to do the kind of fling the WASP were doing.
Sydney Gothenquist: Do you believe men were actually the better pilots?
Amy Nathan: The records show that the WASP flew as well and as safely as men.
Author of:
YANKEE DOODLE GALES: WOMEN PILOTS OF WORLD WAR II
and also
COUNT ON US: AMERICAN WOMEN IN THE U.S. MILITARY
Both books published by National Geographic
www.AmyNathanBooks.com
Questions asked by Sydney Gothenquist [email protected] Answers from Amy Nathan, [email protected] - December 9, 2014
Sydney Gothenquist: Why do you believe so many people were against WASP?
Amy Nathan: People who knew the WASP and worked with them, including male military pilots, weren’t “against the WASP,” but respected these women for their skill and professional approach to doing very challenging and often dangerous flying jobs. However at the start of the 1940s, there were many people, of course, who thought that flying was a man’s job. Most people back then thought a great many other jobs were men’s jobs too, feeling that a woman’s role was primarily as wife and mother. It takes a while for people to change their attitudes, and the amazing job done by all the women of World War II in taking over factory and business jobs left vacant by men who were drafted into the military played a role in gradually changing people’s views about what women could do. The role of all the women who served in women’s units during World War II — including the WASP — helped too in giving people new ideas about what women were capable of. But changing people’s attitudes takes time, and it happens gradually. However, all the World War II women — including the WSP — helped set the stage for changing attitudes about women, which blossomed with the women’s movements of the 1960s and 70s.
Sydney Gothenquist: What do you think of Jackie Cochran as a leader?
Amy Nathan: She was a tenacious fighter who didn’t take no for an answer. “She was forceful and focused and not everybody liked her,” observes B.J. Williams. “But you can’t always win a popularity contest and be effective.”She knew how to negotiate with the top officials in the military. She fought for her women pilots, and had big plans for creating a permanent place for women pilots in the military. But she also intentionally overlooked some problems, feeling that this was necessary to keep the program going, such as not investigating the possible instances of sabotage at Camp Davis, and allowing the tow target pilots to fly planes that weren’t in tip-top condition. She may have been right in that, in choosing which battles to fight, feeling that news reports on men sabotaging women pilots would lead to the program being shut down. Not sure this was the best way to handle this, but it’s hard to second guess her because the times were so different then, in terms of the power women might have in complaining about overt discrimination. Hard to know, but it is a shame that those black women weren’t allowed to have their chance too, especially since the Tuskeegee Airmen program wouldn’t allow women to train to be pilots. However, her tough leadership approach led her to make what turned out to be an unwise ultimatum in 1944, when she said that if the Army wouldn’t give the WASP military status, it should end the program. And, as described my book, that ultimatum helped lead to the end of the WASP. Maybe if she had allowed her program to be part of the WAC (Women Army Corps) it could have continued, but Jackie wasn’t interested in compromising and serving under the WAC command. So I think her tough leadership style, while effective in getting the training program started (and in broadening its focus and keeping it running) had its downsides too. That’s often the way it is — there are good points and bad points to everything.
Sydney Gothenquist: What legacies do you believe Jackie left behind?
Amy Nathan: She showed that women could do a job that most people at the time thought was a man’s job, helping to change people’s ideas about women’s role in American society. She also helped inspire women who were interested in flying, by setting a high standard for flying performance, with all the flying awards she won and the flying records she set.
Sydney Gothenquist: Do you think Jackie is one of the reasons women can fight in the war today?
Amy Nathan: I think the example the WASP pilots set helped open the door for women pilots in the 1970s when the military began allowing women into pilot training programs. So, in a way, that helped set the stage for the continued progress in terms of job responsibilities that servicewomen have made since then. But I think it’s primarily the superior job done by servicewomen from the 1970s on as they tackled increasingly demanding assignments, especially in the first Gulf War and now in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when women have been effectively “in” combat whether they’re supposed to be or not, because combat is all around them in those wars. Their service under fire has led to the new advances that have occurred more recently, with military women having more of a role in combat operations today.
Sydney Gothenquist: How did WASP benefit women in the program?
Amy Nathan: It gave them a chance to have a job flying planes, something that was hard for a woman to get to do before the WASP. But even more important, it gave them a chance to fly the biggest and most advanced aircraft of the day—the dream of anyone who loves flying as much as these women did. It also gave them an exciting and important way to be part of the war effort. During World War II, patriotic spirit was high and there was a strong feeling that helping win this war was something everyone should do, in whatever way they could. From the women I interviewed, serving in the WASP was a high point in their lives, even though doing so opened them up to the crushing disappointment they felt when the program was ended so abruptly in 1944.
Sydney Gothenquist: Do you think any gender notes were altered because of Jackie Cochran?
Amy Nathan: Over the years, as the WASP story has become better known, more people began to realize that the WASP showed that women could pilot the same aircraft as male pilots, flying as well and as safely as men, handle stressful situations, take on a challenging work load. As I mention in the book, Jackie Cochran had the medical staff at Sweetwater keep records on the trainees’ menstrual cycles to see if that incapacitated women in their flying, and the data showed that women flew as well at all times of the month, and that male pilots actually took more sick days that women (see page 79). So one of the common charges used against women—fears that women’s menstrual cycles could affect performance—was found to be untrue. But the problem was, not many people at the time knew about the WASP or what they did during the war. Not many people knew after the war either, until the WASP started lobbying for military recognition in the 1970s (as explained in my book). For people who knew the story, the WASP achievements had an impact in changing opinions. Then later as the WASP story became better known, they had more of an impact. But it was very frustrating for the WASP. They were, as several WASP told me, the best-kept-secret of the war. Several WASP said that after the war when someone asked what they did during the war and they said that they flew military aircraft, people thought they were kidding. But people in aviation knew what these women had done. That had an impact when the military finally began allowing women to be trained as pilots. As explained in my book COUNT ON US, the changes in women’s roles in the military in the 1970s came about as a result of the many changes that had been going on in the 1960s and early 70s with the women’s rights movement. Also playing a part was the need to encourage women to join the new all-volunteer military after the draft was abolished toward the end of the Vietnam War. So when military pilot training was opened to women the WASP records helped the new women pilots persuade the military officials that women could indeed handle flying as well as men.
Sydney Gothenquist: Who do you think was the stronger leader, Jackie Cochran or Nancy Love?
Amy Nathan: They were both strong, effective leaders, although in different ways. Jackie Cochran was interested in organizational structure, running a big program, negotiating with officials. She won the support of WASP pilots because they saw her fighting for them, opening up opportunities. Nancy Love was equally loved by her ferry pilots because she led by example, piloting planes and ferrying planes herself along with her ferry pilots, and also learning to fly the more advanced planes herself to prove to top Army officials that a woman could do this and so opened up more flying opportunities for the ferry pilots. As I mention in my book, these two strong women kept out of each other’s way during the war, each tended to her own part of the program, each led in her own way, each was equally effective in her own sphere. They may not have been each other’s best buddy, but they were professional in their commitment to the broader mission and determined not to let personal issues get in the way.
Sydney Gothenquist: In your opinion, how did wwii benefit from WASP?
Amy Nathan: By taking over much of the stateside military flying, the WASP allowed more male pilots to be assigned to combat missions overseas. The U.S. military had a severe shortage of military pilots at the start of the war, and the WASP, by taking over much of the non-combat flying, helped ease the pilot shortage. The WASP also helped train new male pilots and trained male anti-aircraft gunners with the tow-target missions , and also test-flew planes that had been repaired to make sure they were safe to be flown again in combat. These were all essential services for the war effort. Also some WASP pilots were purposely trained to fly advanced planes like the B-29 specifically to show male pilots that those planes could be flown safely (see my section on the B29). That helped change the perception of those planes among male pilots, encouraging male pilots to fly those planes, which were badly needed in the war effort. The WASP also wound up delivering most of the small fighter planes from factories where they were made to ports where they would be shipped overseas—definitely an important contribution to the war.
Sydney Gothenquist: Who was the most hostile towards WASP and why?
Amy Nathan: Civilian male flight instructors in the 1940s. They had been working in flight schools the Army had set up to train new pilots, to help with the pilot shortage. As the war went better for the U.S. and the pilot shortage wasn’t as severe anymore, the Army started shutting down those training schools. The instructors were civilians and would be subject to the draft and feared that they would be drafted into the infantry, possibly to be sent as part of what many people figured would be a large force that would invade Japan. Even though the Army Airforces tried to allay these instructors’ fears by promising them that this wouldn’t happen, they were scared. They did what they could to shut down the WASP program so they could take over those stateside flying jobs and not be drafted. See chapter 10 for a description of the misinformation campaign they launched against the WASP. However, many of these instructors taught basic, beginning flying skills and weren’t trained on as wide an array of aircraft as the WASP. The WASP had been taught to fly the advanced planes the military was using, something these instructors hadn’t been trained to do. So in a way, those men weren’t qualified to do the kind of fling the WASP were doing.
Sydney Gothenquist: Do you believe men were actually the better pilots?
Amy Nathan: The records show that the WASP flew as well and as safely as men.